by the time bill clinton became president and george bush became president and president obama took office, south africa had become a mature democracy or a new democracy, if you will. so the relationship certainly emerged. but i think what you saw with nelson mandela is he was a principled friend. so he was one who was not unwilling to criticize any nation or any individual. we're even learning now that he criticized his own successor as president of the republic of south africa. so he was a giant. >> michael, i want to ask you quickly about this nbcnews.com article that a lot of folks may not be aware of, this part of the article. mandela and other anc officials remained on the terror watch list even as president bush welcomed mandela to the white house back in 1990 because of what was described as a bureaucratic snafu. their names were kept on the list until 2008. >> yeah. >> why is that characterization of nelson mandela -- of him being a terrorist -- why is that characterization itself complicated? >> i think it's less a characterization of the man and more of the association of the ma